Everybody seems very interested to talk about religion? Let's get straight to the point then. This thread is to talk only on this issue. Seriously and philosophically. That means, words like I believe...has little value. Try to talk logically and try to present proof. Do not get emotional. I will harshly edit words that seem to be personal attacks and out of context.
Join this thread on your own volition and maintain responsibility. Do not talk about God and religion anywhere else, except for this thread. Keep it centralised, so that it can be handled in case of emergency.
Talk about god in general. Do not mention any particular religion or culture. These are meaningless in terms of wide philosophy.
Here goes:
1. What is the definition of God. Please provide specific attributes of God.
2. What are the proofs of the existence of God.
Sun May 23, 04 4:47 pm
Lish Expert User
Joined: 16 May 2004 Posts: 174
Location: Middle of Nowhere!
Post subject:
Good idea...Cloudcontructer...?
Anyway...but i dont think this thread is gonna be enuff for discussion on religion. I think Quantum should make another section for Religion discussions.
Just my thoughts!
_________________ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life:
It Goes On..."
And what do you want to achieve by these types of discussions? If you really WANT TO KNOW (not to just argue!) on God, religion etc. then there are more then enough sources out there from which you can come to your own judgement. _________________ Keep your own dignity, both online and offline throughout your life !!!
Mon May 24, 04 4:54 am
Lish Expert User
Joined: 16 May 2004 Posts: 174
Location: Middle of Nowhere!
Post subject:
i mean...we share the knowledge we have...
Learn from each other...how other people think... _________________ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life:
It Goes On..."
Mon May 24, 04 5:11 am
Belal User
Joined: 08 Mar 2004 Posts: 84
Location: Dhaka, Bangladesh
Post subject:
//edited by admin
there r lot of things that ppl can't discover, so how can they try to discover god or HIS existence? if they have discovered all the unknown things of the world or discovered human being's limitations, than i haven't any object on it. it seems, we r trying to discover something or talk abt something with our little knowledge, abt something that we never can discover, just passing our times..............it it's a question that how we will lead our life or how we have come etc.
my opinion:
ppl who r believing in God, should do there duty accordingly
and
ppl who don't, should not follow those lines of any religion
so, why bothering?
i think, many ppl of this earth is doing exactly the same thing (though there r many ppl who r a combination of the above two cat)
anyway, best of luck to u all, who r here to discover or get the answers of ur questions. _________________ we've lot of things to think abt curr probs
so, i don't have time to think abt religion or wonder of sceice .......... how ppl can waste their time like this?
Mon May 24, 04 6:43 am
Lish Expert User
Joined: 16 May 2004 Posts: 174
Location: Middle of Nowhere!
Post subject:
//edited by admin _________________ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life:
It Goes On..."
As I have said and Belal understands, join this thread only if you want to posit logical arguements for or against god. If you do not like it, do not read it. All irrelevent posts will have to be edited.
Lish,
If you want to discuss god, let us please follow a systemetic way. Begin with a definitive specification of what God is. And what are the proofs for the existence of god. You can copy from the other thread, your air and oxygen example.
Belal,
there r lot of things that ppl can't discover, so how can they try to discover god or HIS existence? if they have discovered all the unknown things of the world or discovered human being's limitations, than i haven't any object on it.
If any of the great thinkers thought like this, nothing new and revolutionary would ever be discovered. They would think, it has not been discovered yet, why bother trying to discover it.
Think, very carefully, yes, science has no explanation for many things yet. True. And what it mean are:
1. As a civilization we are still very young and just now getting more technology oriented and being aware of how to yield our abilities.
2. Even when science cannot explain something, science always explains why it cannot be explained. In all of the cases, this is a technological limitation. Not a flaw of the scientific theory.
it seems, we r trying to discover something or talk abt something with our little knowledge, abt something that we never can discover,
Something that can never be discovered means it DOES NOT exist. So you admit that God DOES NOT exist. It is a bad practice to believe in something that does not exist.
why bothering?
Bother, because most beliefs of a person are interrlated. That is why many cruel things are being done in the name of God. It is bad for society to let live and grow a false belief widely. It hampers development.
Mon May 24, 04 9:26 am
Lish Expert User
Joined: 16 May 2004 Posts: 174
Location: Middle of Nowhere!
Post subject:
cloudconstructor wrote:
.Lish,
Begin with a definitive specification of what God is. And what are the proofs for the existence of god.
The obvious reason and question that should make you aware whether God exists or not is to ask "Where did we come from? Who created the earth? "Who created the sun, the moon, the planets, the stars, the galaxies.. this whole universe. Where did it come from?" Was it a mere chance? Imagine this: There was nothing in this universe at the beginning, not even an atom and suddenly something was created. Out of what? How? Then the whole universe comes into existence in stages. How? There is a cause for everything. It obviously envolved some Creator and that Creator is whom we call The God, Allah (swt). Here are some verses that will make you think (and prove) whether God exists or not:
It is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (The Qur'an, 51:47)
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (The Qur'an, 21:30)
He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth with truth, and on the day He says: Be, it is. His word is the truth. (The Qur'an, 6:73)
He Who has created seven heavens in full harmony with one another: no incongruity will you see in the creation of the Most Gracious. And turn your vision (upon it) once more: can you see any flaw? Yea, turn your vision (upon it) again and yet again: (and every time) your vision will fall back upon you, dazzled and truly defeated. (The Qur'an, 67:3-4)
Say: He it is Who brought you into being and made for you the ears and the eyes and the hearts: little is it that you give thanks. (The Qur'an, 67:23)
We will show them Our Signs on the horizon and within themselves until it is clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not enough for your Lord that He is a witness of everything? (The Qur'an, 41:53)
And so just look around you, and ask "how did this all began". Evolutionists believe in "fight for the fittest" and they say that stronger animals are replaced by the weaker ones over a period of time. However, they cannot explain how beauty has evolved. The colours on the butterfly, on the birds, the fish etc. what reason were they evolved for? How do the colours on these species make them "fitter"? They have no answers. The only answers it that there is some Creator who created them in this way and gave them different qualities, abilities, characteristics and beauty.
Ha-Mim. The revelation of the Book is from Allah the Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom. Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe. And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are Signs for those of assured Faith. And in the alternation of Night and Day, and the fact that Allah sends down Sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds,- are Signs for those that are wise. Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs? [Holy Qur'an 45:1-6] _________________ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life:
It Goes On..."
I have heard this argument so many times and have answered in so many ways, I will just quote this time. I do not know if you are serious about a real debate upto this level. But if you respond intelligently I will reply. This kind of proof of God is called argument from design in philosophy and is really a worn out one.
Quote:
The origin of the Argument by Design is a feeling that the existence of something as incredibly intricate as, say, a human is so improbable that surely it can't have come about by chance; that surely there must be some external intelligence directing things so that humans come from the chaos deliberately.
But if human intelligence is so improbable, surely the existence of a mind capable of fashioning an entire universe complete with conscious beings must be immeasurably more unlikely? The approach used to argue in favor of the existence of a creator can be turned around and applied to the Creationist position.
This leads us to the familiar theme of "If a creator created the universe, what created the creator?", but with the addition of spiralling improbability. The only way out is to declare that the creator was not created and just "is" (or "was").
From here we might as well ask what is wrong with saying that the universe just "is" without introducing a creator? Indeed Stephen Hawking, in his book "A Brief History of Time", explains his theory that the universe is closed and finite in extent, with no beginning or end.
The Argument From Design is often stated by analogy, in the so-called Watchmaker Argument. One is asked to imagine that one has found a watch on the beach. Does one assume that it was created by a watchmaker, or that it evolved naturally? Of course one assumes a watchmaker. Yet like the watch, the universe is intricate and complex; so, the argument goes, the universe too must have a creator.
The Watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws, over and above those common to all Arguments By Design. Firstly, a watchmaker creates watches from pre-existing materials, whereas God is claimed to have created the universe from nothing. These two sorts of creation are clearly fundamentally different, and the analogy is therefore rather weak.
Secondly, a watchmaker makes watches, but there are many other things in the world. If we walked further along the beach and found a nuclear reactor, we wouldn't assume it was created by the watchmaker. The argument would therefore suggest a multitude of creators, each responsible for a different part of creation (or a different universe, if you allow the possibility that there might be more than one).
Finally, in the first part of the watchmaker argument we conclude that the watch is not part of nature because it is ordered, and therefore stands out from the randomness of nature. Yet in the second part of the argument, we start from the position that the universe is obviously not random, but shows elements of order. The Watchmaker argument is thus internally inconsistent.
Apart from logical inconsistencies in the watchmaker argument, it's worth pointing out that biological systems and mechanical systems behave very differently. What's unlikely for a pile of gears is not necessarily unlikely for a mixture of biological molecules.
Last edited by cloudconstructor on Fri Jun 11, 04 6:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Aside from the quote, I really hope you read it thoroughly a few times and think before you respond, here is a single point that invalidates your argument.
You say, "There is a cause for everything. It obviously envolved some Creator and that Creator"
Emphasize the words, there is a cause for everything.
Everything means every thing. Every single thing. Then the question is who caused God? Or who created God?
If god does not need a creator, then it is not true that there is a cause needed for everything. And thus, universe itself might not need a cause to evolve.
And if God has a creator too then that creator needs a creator too. So on and so on. Infinite regression.
Fri Jun 11, 04 6:39 am
Lish Expert User
Joined: 16 May 2004 Posts: 174
Location: Middle of Nowhere!
Post subject:
Let me ask you a question, "Who will be the first to know the mechanism of an unknown object?"
Ans: the creator, the manufacturer. that the creator is the first person who knows the mechanism of any object.
I further prove to you using scientific knowledge that the creator of the Universe i.e. God Almighty is the first to know the mechanism of the universe and has mentioned it in his book ‘The Quran’.
But if somebody was to pose me the same Question:, that who will be the first to know the mechanism of an unknown object, I will not reply just by saying ‘the creator’ or ‘the manufacturer,’ but I will reply, that every object and all things which have a beginning, the mechanism of all these things will be first known by its creator, since they are all created things. Even after using this answer of mine, we can still scientifically prove that all the signs that we see i.e. the sun, the moon, the earth etc have a beginning of their mechanism”.
That is the way they function and behave. This has been discovered recently by science, but was mentioned 1400 years ago in the Quran which proves that it is a book which is revealed by Allah. Now if someone asks me the question “Who created Allah?” I will reply that once my friend asked me a similar question that his brother Tom was admitted to the hospital and he conceived and gave birth to a baby: guess, is the baby a girl or a boy? It is an absurd statement. Only females can conceive and give birth to a baby. It is impossible for Tom, who is a male, to conceive and give a birth to a child. One of the qualities and characteristics of a male is that he cannot conceive and give birth to a child. Similarly one of the characteristics of Allah is He is uncreated and does not have a beginning. Therefore asking a question, “Who created the uncreated?” is as absurd as asking, “My brother Tom conceived and gave birth to a child, is the child a girl or a boy?”. _________________ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life:
It Goes On..."
Your first first few paragraphs are nothing but saying that God exists because God says so? lol.
You are assuming that god exists before you start to prove the existence of God.
Any sound theory begins with the assumption that it is wrong and then goes to provide proofs why it is true.
You can not prove this chicken did this or that because the chicken said so.
//And in this case, there is no definitive proof even that the chicken himself said it. It can be a pure hallucination and lies of men.
Second and last point:
Quote:
Therefore asking a question, “Who created the uncreated?” is as absurd as asking, “My brother Tom conceived and gave birth to a child, is the child a girl or a boy?”.
Is it me who asked this question? It is just as absurd to ask who created the universe. Universe is infinite in both time and space dimension. Infinity is infinity. There is no beginning and end to it. It is you who started your argument in favor of god by asking who created such a complicated thing as the universe. Absurd question.
Fri Jun 11, 04 7:07 am
Lish Expert User
Joined: 16 May 2004 Posts: 174
Location: Middle of Nowhere!
Post subject:
cloudconstructor wrote:
Aside from the quote, I really hope you read it thoroughly a few times and think before you respond, here is a single point that invalidates your argument.
You say, "There is a cause for everything. It obviously envolved some Creator and that Creator"
Emphasize the words, there is a cause for everything.
Everything means every thing. Every single thing. Then the question is who caused God? Or who created God?
If god does not need a creator, then it is not true that there is a cause needed for everything. And thus, universe itself might not need a cause to evolve.
And if God has a creator too then that creator needs a creator too. So on and so on. Infinite regression.
Your question itself doesn't make sense. First of all you acknowledge that God is "The Creator" and created EVERYTHING and then you put Him on the same level as the creation. This is obviously a contradiction. How can God who Created EVERYTHING be part of the creation Himself? If that was so, then He cannot be "The Creator". If He Himself was part of the creation, that means that He was created by something that He Himself did not create, meaning that He would not be fit to be called "The Creator".
Secondly, you are attributing the laws of God to God Himself. He is the Creator of space, time and the laws of physics in the universe. If He created these laws, then He Himself cannot be the subject of these laws. He is outside these laws. In this questioning of yours, you are like those dolls that move by springs. They see the humans around them and imagine that they too must move by the actions of springs attached to them. If the dolls were told that the humans are self-moved, they would cry out that it is impossible for anything to move spontaneously since everything in their world is moved by springs. Just like them, you cannot imagine that God exists in His own Essence with no need of an efficient cause. This is because you see everything around you in need of such a cause. It is as if you thought that God needs a parachute to descend among men or a fast car to reach to His prophets. God is infinitely exalted above such conceptions.
Hence the answer to the question "who created God?" is that He was not created. He always existed without a cause, He always will exist and there is no one like Him.
(1) He is One and Only. Not two, not three, not four, but ONE and ONLY. This is opposing the idea of the polytheists, the Christians and some Jews who have made the creation of Him into gods.
(2) He is the Eternal and Absolute. In other words he does not have a beginning or end. He is self-sufficient. He does not depend upon anything for His existence, but everything else depends on Him for its existence.
(3) He does not beget other gods and nor was He begotten. If something else or some other god created Him, then He would not be fit to be called "God" but instead there would be a being more powerful than Him that created Him. However, He is the (Absolute) Creator Himself and therefore, there is nothing in the universe that was not created by Him. If He gave birth to (beget) other gods, then those gods would not be fit to be called "Gods" either because one of the fundamental attribute of God is that He is not created by something. As soon as you create something, it becomes a creation and God is not part of the creation. God is Self-Sufficient, Absolute, Eternal and does not depend on something else for His existence.
(4) There is nothing like God in the universe. In other words, whatever you can comprehend or imagine in your mind, that thing cannot be God. He does not have a shape or form. He cannot be seen or heard so how can one think about his appearance? When He shows Himself, He does so from behind a veil, when He speaks to mankind (Moses for example) He does so from behind a veil. No vision can comprehend Him yet He is the one who comprehends all vision. This verse is against Anthropomorphism as well. _________________ "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life:
It Goes On..."
Your question itself doesn't make sense. First of all you acknowledge that God is "The Creator" and created EVERYTHING and then you put Him on the same level as the creation.
I did not acknowledge anywhere that God or any entity whatsoever created everything. Perhaps, you are reading someone else's posts in some other forum.
Quote:
How can God who Created EVERYTHING be part of the creation Himself? If that was so, then He cannot be "The Creator". If He Himself was part of the creation, that means that He was created by something that He Himself did not create, meaning that He would not be fit to be called "The Creator".
Right, my point also. It is absurd that the so called God would need a creator. Just as I said, "And if God has a creator too then that creator needs a creator too. So on and so on. Infinite regression."
Quote:
Secondly, you are attributing the laws of God to God Himself. He is the Creator of space, time and the laws of physics in the universe. If He created these laws, then He Himself cannot be the subject of these laws. He is outside these laws. In this questioning of yours, you are like those dolls that move by springs. They see the humans around them and imagine that they too must move by the actions of springs attached to them. If the dolls were told that the humans are self-moved, they would cry out that it is impossible for anything to move spontaneously since everything in their world is moved by springs. Just like them, you cannot imagine that God exists in His own Essence with no need of an efficient cause. This is because you see everything around you in need of such a cause. It is as if you thought that God needs a parachute to descend among men or a fast car to reach to His prophets. God is infinitely exalted above such conceptions.
This paragraph and your above paragraph requires that you understand where you stand at now. Your whole reasoning comes from the
laws of physics, space, and time. That there seems to be a cause for everything...is a law of physics. So you argued that the universe must have a cause also. Therefore there is a God. And now you are saying that this is just our human limitation that to assume everything must have a cause! Should I cry or laugh? You are confused.
I won't second guess you. Please state clearly, does everything need a cause or not?
The rest of your post has nothing to argue. These are just words with no meaning. How do I argue that there is an infinitely powerful dragon living up in the far galaxy or even beyond the galaxies that noone can see. He knows everything what we do or do not. But has no power to intervene although, he is omnipotent. These are just a bunch of adjectives to praise God. That's fine with me. You can go ahead and praise God as much as you wish...but that is besides the point here. And has no impression or meaning whatsoever. Please refrain from quoting such meaningless quotes. They only increase the length of the posts while offer nothing debatable or valuable.
Sun Jun 13, 04 5:44 am
PrinceZ£D Guest
Post subject:
cloudconstructor wrote:
I did not acknowledge anywhere that God or any entity whatsoever created everything. Perhaps, you are reading someone else's posts in some other forum.
You are right. I was the one who gave her that reply cos she asked me to reply to you. Anyway, what is important here is the argument, not who is is writing what.
Quote:
I won't second guess you. Please state clearly, does everything need a cause or not?
I don't know how clearer I could get. My answer was simple and straightforward that any mind could understand. A famous Saint, Ibn Arabi, was asked, "Who made the Creator?” to which he replied, "Only a disordered mind would ask such a question". According to him, it is Allah that substantiates existence and it would be an erroneous to point to the existence or the universe and say that this proves the existence of God. It is like saying that light indicates day and it would be a lopsided argument to claim that day proves the existence of light. You cannot point to a Creation and prove that God exists, even though one can be aware that He is manifest in everything in the universe. In the order of things, in precision, beauty, regularity, in tree leaves, in the feathers of a fawn, in the wings of the butterfly, the fragrance of flowers, in the chanting of nightingale, in the harmony of planets and stars that make up the universe. All this points to the "EXISTENCE" of a Creator, however it does not "PROVE" His Existence. (notice the difference)
In an Hadith Qudsi (Diving Utterance), Allah says: "It is I who aids in proving and finding, there is no proof leading to Me."
Hence,...is the proof which is in no need of another proof. He is the self-evident Truth; and He is the evidence that substantiates everything.
Bottom line to your question "does everything need a cause of not?" (As already explained to you in detail in my previous post) is that yes there is a cause for everything in the universe, and that cause is God. However, the same logic cannot apply to God because He is the Creator of EVERYTHING including Cause and Reason. He is outside the laws that He created. We seek to find a cause because everything around us seems to have a cause. It is like the dolls example I gave. Allah (swt) is free of any Cause. He is the Self-Evident Truth.
Quote:
The rest of your post has nothing to argue. How do I argue that there is an infinitely powerful dragon living up in the far galaxy that noone can see. He knows....Please refrain from quoting those verses. They only increase the length of the post while offers nothing debatable or valuable.
If they are meaningless to you, then why can't you respond to them and prove them wrong??
The fact that you rejected those verses just means that you were incapable of seeing the Reality and Truth in them. Like Ibn Arabi said, your mind is "disordered". You are using your own human logic to describe and prove something Divine that is free from all logic and laws of the universe that you have learnt since your existence.
About the existence of your powerful dragon:
(1) The fact that this "god" of yours is a "dragon" has disproved your argument that it is All-Powerful and has in fact proven that it itself is a created being. This "god" of yours has a shape and form and therefore has certain dimensions of space and time. And this dragon of yours is living far away from you. You have to travel to get there. There is a large gap between you and the dragon where the dragon has not manifested itself. If it was All-Powerful, then how can it not be manifested in everything in the universe?
(2) What kind of dragon is this that it exists, and is All-Powerful, yet it has not made itself be known to anyone? If it was really All-Powerful, surely, it would be not a difficult task for it to be made known to us. How can it be All-Powerful when there are creatures in the universe that don't even know about it? How can it be All-Powerful that no one knows about the powerful things that it is doing? If it was upholding the universe, rotating the plants, making rain fall etc. then surely it would have made itself be known to us that it is doing as such. However, on the other hand according to this dragon, it has allowed ..... take all the credit for it, who sent Prophets to mankind to prove His Omnipresence and Omnipotence and Power over all things.
