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dinangkur
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Post Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually that theory was proved wrong, and he later he commented: biggest mistake in his life. But 2 years before few scientist from AUS(I'm not sure about it) proved it right. I saw it in discovery...:)

Happy Hacking.

-DK.
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Mon Apr 12, 04 10:49 am
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dinangkur
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Post Post subject: Reply with quote

Quantum,

I forgot to tell you something. I like to put your comparison between Human language and computer language in different way. Both don’t have a common ground to compare. A fundamental fallacy and you're falling into it. Now let’s go few steps back. Let’s just take human and computer. How a human process a problem in brain? Of course in parallel way and also the fastest computer of the world do the same faster than human. Back draw is that computer can process within few boundaries where else human can fire it up in to million of process. Do you think computer can do it? Can emulate nature!

Imitation of nature is bad engineering. For centuries, inventors tried to fly by emulating birds, and they have killed themselves uselessly. If you want to make something that flies, flapping your wings is not the way to do it. You bolt a 400-horsepower engine to a barn door, that's how you fly. You can look at birds for ever and never discover this secret. You see Mother Nature has never developed the Boeing 747. Why not? Because, nature didn't need anything that would fly at 700 mph at 40,000 feet: how would such an animal feed itself?

Now you're gonna ask what this fits in Human language and computer language? Human language is developed for human and computer language developed for computer. Now if we identify language inventor as X, X has developed 2 types of language for 2 different environments. Human and Computer. Human is part of nature and Computer is part of human intellectual engineering which has no uniqueness in context of nature and X.

Human can evolve its language but computer can't. Due to the processing limitation and lack of AI it has limitation. Nature has never needed a computer and accordingly, has never bothered to develop one. So, when an intelligent entity is finally built, it will have evolved on principles different from those of Man's mind, and its level of intelligence will certainly not be measured by the fact that it can make a conversation in English or Bangla. So, there is a fundamental flaws, it just a tool for our life. So, we human being should develop one tool to control that tool not several tools to do the same fundamental work, it just reinventing the wheel. We can evolve the existing tool.

If you referring the word “teacher” to the developers who works in M$. I bow by head. But if you referring to that chairman, ops, what you say about burning in hell! LOL.

-DK.
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Mon Apr 12, 04 10:52 pm
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quantum
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Post Post subject: The cosmological constant Reply with quote

Dk,

Actually that theory was proved wrong, and he later he commented: biggest mistake in his life. But 2 years before few scientist from AUS(I'm not sure about it) proved it right. I saw it in discovery...

Your information is little bit out of context. The blunder of cosmological constant that you are talking about has nothing to do with the most saught after theory since the beginning of human civilization, TOE. And it is in no way dead, because after 30 years of einstein's death(he died on 1955), the importance of his dream was first beginning to be realized by the scientists. And today, this is the holy grail of abstract theoretical physics.

The cosmological constant was something that Einstein was forced to introduce in the equations of general relativity in 1917. He was forced, because even for a genious like einstein could not imagine an expanding universe! A universe that grows in size into NOTHING. It was introduced much earlier than there was even a concept of big bang. Why, the most common sensical thing to presume is that the universe is infinite and alwayas existed endlessly. It was before hubble first deduced that the galaxies might be moving away from each other from the famous red shift in the frequencies of spectrum analysis. So einstein thought a fudge factor was necessary. The way he tried to explain the universe was a static and homogeneous model that has a soehrical geometry. But he saw that the gravitational pull of all matters would cause an acceleration in this model. So a reverse force was necessary. Enter the cosmological constant, that would act somewhat like anti-gravity and balance the act. So we have a static universe. So yes, einstein made a blunder that he was later brave enough to admit. But you see that there was technological limitation that acted as the main reason for his deciding on a static model. But really it was nothing that serious, and it in no way lessened the validity and effectiveness of the main theory, the theory of relativity.

The theory I was referring to and you mixed with the cosmological constant was the grand unified theory. But it'll need some background to be explained before I get into the theme. When I was doing research in this side, I saved a lot of text in a word document from the net. If you really wanna know some basics about it read below:

[Quote]
Early attempts at unification.
The urge to discover a fundamental theory underlying all natural phenomena has been expressed since the beginning of civilization. From the reduction of all matter to ``earth, air, fire, water'', we have progressed considerably. Chemistry reduces all of matter to a hundred or so types of atoms, called ``elements''. But these in turn consist of smaller particles interacting with each other. We now understand reasonably well how to reduce all of matter to a large collection of elementary particles. The interactions amongst them are ascribed to the exchange of other particles, called ``force carriers''.

The four forces.

Experimentally it is known that there are just four basic forces in nature. Two of them are very familiar: the electromagnetic force, and the gravitational force. The other two are invisible unless we probe deep inside the nucleus of the atom. They are called ``nuclear forces'' and come in two varieties, the ``weak'' and the ``strong'' force. The weak nuclear force is responsible for radioactive decay, while the strong force binds protons and neutrons together to make up the nucleus.

The Standard Model of elementary particles.

The most fundamental theory today that is substantially confirmed by experiment is the ``Standard Model'' of three interactions: electro-magnetic, weak nuclear and strong nuclear. In this model, particles like electrons, muons, neutrinos and quarks make up matter. They interact via the above forces. The force carriers are other particles, such as photons and the more recently discovered W and Z bosons and gluons.

Success of the Standard Model.

The Standard Model gives us a recipe to calculate the rates at which interactions take place. We can then measure the same rates in an accelerator or other laboratory, and compare with the theory. The result of this comparison has been very successful, and has ultimately led to several Nobel Prizes in Physics. In 1979, the prize was awarded to theorists Sheldon Glashow, Abdus Salam and Steven Weinberg, who proposed the theory of electromagnetic and weak interactions. In 1984, it went to experimentalists Carlo Rubbia and Simon van der Meer, for the detection of the W and Z particles predicted by the model. The 1976, 1988, 1990 and 1995 Nobel Prizes were given for other experiments that corroborated aspects of the Standard Model, and the 1999 prize went to theorists Gerardus 'tHooft and Martinus Veltman for elucidating the mathematical theory that underlies it.

Shortcomings of the Standard Model.

Despite all this, today it is believed that the Standard Model is approximate and incomplete. It does not incorporate the fourth and perhaps best-known force in nature: gravity. This is believed to be mediated by the exchange of gravitons, and due to problems of mathematical consistency, no one has ever been able to incorporate gravity into the Standard Model. So it is surely incomplete. Another problem with this model is that one has to assume the existence of distinct forces and their carriers. Einstein hoped that there would be a ``unified'' theory in which all known forces would emerge out of a single one in some way. Electricity and magnetism used to be thought of as two forces, but now we know they are different aspects of the same (electro-magnetic) force. Could the same type of unification hold for the four forces that are today viewed as distinct?

Unified Theories.

A unified theory would be a mathematical framework in which all the different kinds of forces and particles occur naturally. We should not have to fix the masses and charges of particles from experiment; rather the theory should fix them automatically to be the right values. Why does the electron weigh as much as it does? Why do particles interact with a given strength and not any other? In the standard model we just assume that these values are the ones measured in experiments, but in a unified theory these values should be predicted. Clearly this is an ambitious goal.

This suggests that the theory should possess a great degree of mathematical elegance and consistency. To discover the unified theory, we must look among those physical models which broadly resemble nature and in addition satisfy the above criteria. Only at a later stage -- after the detailed structure of the theory is understood -- can we check whether it describes our world.

Einstein's dream.

Einstein was among the earliest to propose that such a unified field theory must exist, and he struggled -- without success -- for most of his later life to find the right theory. Today we may be on the verge of realising Einstein's dream. String theory is currently the most promising example of a candidate unified theory. We are not yet sure that it correctly describes nature, but it broadly describes a world similar to ours, and is endowed with beauty and consistency to an astonishing degree.


[Unquote]

So einstein left it there and currently the most vigorous attempt is undertaken by thousands of the most brilliant physicists all over the world in the field of superstring theory.

I hope that clears our misunderstanding little bit.
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Last edited by quantum on Thu Apr 15, 04 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Tue Apr 13, 04 1:54 am
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Post Post subject: Computers Vs Human Reply with quote

I forgot to tell you something. I like to put your comparison between Human language.....and computer language in different way. Both don’t have a common ground to compare.

There is no fundamental difference between a computer and human consciousness. The basics are the same. Human beings are advanced computing machines.

But you have admitted it yourslef already. So I think, if you argue further then it'd be just for argument's sake. Consider this quotes from u.

1. How a human process a problem in brain? Of course in parallel way and also the fastest computer of the world do the same faster than human.

2. Back draw is that computer can process within few boundaries where else human can fire it up in to million of process. Do you think computer can do it?


So the basic is the same. Only mechanical computers are not that advanced technologically yet to compute so brilliantly as humans. But consider where we had been in terms of computing power even say, 10 years before. You know all about it. You read the history in computer fundementals class. You just have to look in the future, 10, 000 and 20,000 years from now in that line and see how more powerful computers will become. But luckily perhaps, you won't even have to wait that long. Are you familiar with the concept of quantum computing?

The limitations of traditional computers are well known and obvious. Yes, it is incapable of doing such huge amount of parallel processing as u say. In 1994, 1600 workstations took 8 months to factor a 129 digit number using the best known factoring algorithm. Because the algorithm scales exponentially with the input size log_N, with this algorithm and conventional computing, it will take 10 to the power 25 years to factor a 1000 digit number.
Computers will never match human processing power , right? Wrong.

The lithographics technology used in today's computer have logic gates that are a small fraction of a micron. Soon we will reach a point when they will be made of a few atoms. On atomic scale matter behaves in terms of quantum theory. Very surprisingly, the rules and laws of Quantum theory are very very defiierent than the macro world. And a computer based on quantum logics will offer a new kind of computing technology. Like?

Traditionally, what is the limitations of a computer as you noted? The basic chunks of information, one bit, is a physical system prepared in one of the two different states. 0 or 1. Quantum mechanics shows us with experimentally proven results that in addition to these two states there is a third state possible. It is a coherent superposition of the two states just mentioned. It is both 0 and 1 at once. You know about it from high school physics. It was discovered from the duality of the nature of light or electromagnetic forces. You even did the experiment yourself in the physics lab, that is if u did'nt skip it. The double slit experiment, remember?

Apply the idea of superposition for a register that has three physical states....
[quote]
Any classical register of that type can store in a given moment of time only one out of eight different numbers i.e the register can be in only one out of eight possible configurations such as 000, 001, 010, ... 111. A quantum register composed of three qubits can store in a given moment of time all eight numbers in a quantum superposition. This is quite remarkable that all eight numbers are physically present in the register but it should be no more surprising than a qubit being both in state 0 and 1 at the same time. If we keep adding qubits to the register we increase its storage capacity exponentially i.e. three qubits can store 8 different numbers at once, four qubits can store 16 different numbers at once, and so on; in general L qubits can store 2L numbers at once. Once the register is prepared in a superposition of different numbers we can perform operations on all of them. For example, if qubits are atoms then suitably tuned laser pulses affect atomic electronic states and evolve initial superpositions of encoded numbers into different superpositions. During such evolution each number in the superposition is affected and as the result we generate a massive parallel computation albeit in one piece of quantum hardware. This means that a quantum computer can in only one computational step perform the same mathematical operation on 2to the power L different input numbers encoded in coherent superpositions of L qubits. In order to acomplish the same task any classical computer has to repeat the same computation 2 to the power L times or one has to use 2to the powerL different processors working in parallel. In other words a quantum computer offers an enormous gain in the use of computational resources such as time and memory.
[unquote]

Yes, DK. We are hopefully very close to conquering your technologically yet impossible, parallel processing barrier. :)

Check out this link if you want to check out the mathematical algorithm to carry out such processing to gain huge computing power boost.

[http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~schmuel/comp/node9.html]

Can emulate nature!
Can we emulate nature? Even better than what nature has done so far(directed by nature itself, of course), if I may say so.

Now you're gonna ask what this fits in Human language and computer language? Human language is developed for human and computer language developed for computer...Human is part of nature and Computer is part of human intellectual engineering which has no uniqueness in context of nature and X.


There is no basic difference between the working of a computer and human consciousness from a materialistic approach. Human consciousness has two main faculties that drives his activities. Memory and Imagination. Computers have memory, no doubt. You ask imagination? Let us dissect what is imagnation.

The memory is a faculty that conjures up ideas based on experiences as they happened. For example, the memory I have of my drive to the store is a comparatively accurate copy of my previous sense impressions of that experience. The imagination, by contrast, is a faculty that breaks apart and combines ideas, thus forming new ones. Consider the example of a golden mountain: this idea is a combination of an idea of gold and an idea
of a mountain. As our imagination chops up and forms new ideas, it is directed by three principles of association, namely, resemblance, contiguity, and cause and effect. For example, by virtue of resemblance, the sketch of a person leads me to an idea of that actual person. The ideas of the imagination are further divided between two categories.

Some imaginative ideas represent flights of the fancy, such as the idea of a golden mountain; other imaginative ideas, though, represent solid reasoning, such as predicting the trajectory of a thrown ball. The fanciful ideas are derived from the faculty of the fancy, and are the source of fantasies, superstitions, and bad philosophy. By contrast,

the good ideas are derived from the faculty of the understanding - or reason - and roughly involve either mathematical demonstration or factual predictions. When we imaginatively exercise our understanding, our minds are guided by seven philosophical or "reasoning" relations, which are divided as follows:

(1) resemblance, (2) contrariety, (3) degrees in quality, and (4) proportions in quantity or number (5) identity, (6) relations in time and place, and (7) causation (from A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge)

All of the above attributes are quantifiable and can be developed through advanced programming algorithm. Human consciousness has no inherent uniqueness that can not be duplicated with computer when we make enough technological progress.

Human can evolve its language but computer can't. Due to the processing limitation and lack of AI it has limitation. Nature has never needed a computer and accordingly, has never bothered to develop one.

Point 1: the processing limitations will be eliminated as explained above.

Point 2: You are standing human consciousness apart from the nature. As if humans were something very unique, beyond nature itself. Absolutely wrong.

Humans ARE a part of nature
Humans ARE developing computers.
Nature IS developing computers


So, there is a fundamental flaws, it just a tool for our life.
And we are the tools of the nature sir.

So, we human being should develop one tool to control that tool not several tools to do the same fundamental work, it just reinventing the wheel. We can evolve the existing tool.

Although your basic reasoning is false. I agree with your conclusion. For the reason that it will be certainly more practical to use one language then many. Such would be the case also for human laguages, if we all spoke english.

If you referring the word “teacher” to the developers who works in M$. I bow by head. But if you referring to that chairman, ops, what you say about burning in hell!

Actually, I am referring to whole microsoft as an entity. We should watch and learn why they are more succesful in capturing the market. And build a system that is better than theirs and use superior techniques to make it reach the widest possible audience.

quantum
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Tue Apr 13, 04 3:37 am
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dinangkur
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Post Post subject: Reply with quote

just delicious :)

Happy Hacking.

-DK.
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Thu Apr 15, 04 11:55 pm
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quantum
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Post Post subject: Delicious Reply with quote

DK,

I was hoping more comments from yea. :(

What is it about banglai ppl. They do not want to talk about serious stuffs. As if the real questions are all for someone else to solve. Or don't it matter what we really are, and why? :shock:
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Thu Apr 22, 04 12:02 am
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dinangkur
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Post Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I'm quite busy with assignments. I will be free from next month. I need to read few things before say somethings. Don't worry more things are coming up.

-DK.
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Thu Apr 22, 04 1:25 pm
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