.net

[quantum]

.net, what is it good for? A lot of hype going on on this matter currently. What is the inherent benefits of this brand new kid on the block?
_________________

Dust fills my eyes / Clouds roll by / and I roll with them / Centuries cry / Orders fly / and I fall again
Afford best design, implement best solution. Outsource your web design.

[dinangkur]

Tell me one thing mate, you'r coding for a long time, me not that long, but did you ever find anything cool after Qbasic in M$ release, except tons of bug waiting for exploits! Personally I hate the IDE. M$ thinks they can create a new standard and through all others, that ain't gonna happen. Just look at VC, C++ standard and M$ C++ standard.

-DK.
_________________
...we too are stardust...

[serpent]

come on man, do u know the meaning of basic? it's "Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code" (i'm not joking, u could look it up.) it's not anything for professional programmers. the first real programmers' language was C. basic didn't have inheritance, interface before .NET came along. the best thing about .NET is that u can write ur code in anything of VB, C# and managed C++, make a DLL and go ahead and use it in another project. they have one single common framework class library that makes life a hell lot easier than it used to be. and the IDE is a much more improved one for designing UI's. i don't know how much low level programming u can do in it, but for rapid application development, it's best.
_________________
the venomous serpent

[dinangkur]

Quote:

the first real programmers' language was C. basic didn't have inheritance, interface before .NET came along.

You're joking right. Do you've any idea of object oriented programming. The best OOP is CORBA. I guess you don't know anything about it. For you kind info you're using network and still you need only and only C to implement the process.

By the way, I can't post DLL in other OS. Main draw back, when M$ will be able to do that let me know.
M$ is good for creating fancy IDE with lot of flaws, LOL. Coding in VB, do you think it's really a programming language. I don't think so. There are lot C++ IDE in which you can develop application as faster as VB. You just need to know. And while you can create Application with PHP and MySQL and port it in different OS as database application, why we should use .NET for a closed OS environment. Think about it.

-DK.
_________________
...we too are stardust...

[serpent]

i was under the impression that CORBA was an architecture, not a language, i searched some in the net, and waht i came up with was that we define the interfaces in IDL and use any of the languages OMG has mapped to. so how does this qualify as the "best OOP"? please explain.
_________________
the venomous serpent

[dinangkur]

My sincere apology with that remark CORBA..that will be "smalltalk"..i'm really in impression of extra cafine and sleepless env. :(

Hi there,

Before I draw another conclusion, I feel an urge to explain the technical draw back of .NET. And why I expect programmers form third world country shouldn’t use M$ products.
1. I don’t know you’re using a registered .NET version or a pirate one. If you’re using a registered one, I’d say you’ve a hack of wealth to spend on. With that money you can have a computer and a lot of open-source software which are far better than that and you’ve total control in it.
2. I know you’re familiar with .NET hardware requirements. Think you’re running a company or a IT manager of a company, your boss ask you to develop a customer care solution, but the budget is low (after dot com crash companies has changed their views and investment strategy towards IT department), in order to develop the system you need .NET (which is your choice), faster PC (if you intend to use .NET for several PC you’ve to get licenses for that…pay more money). Suppose you got the money from management to develop the system, later management asked to deploy it in another department who use Apple, what you’re going to do?
3. Why we give our money to Americans? Look at India they’re developing in open-source which has several advantages. Free, full access to source code, true multitasking, portability. .NET doesn’t have those. C#...they steal the idea from Java, is there anything which is their own, oh sorry, yes there is…bugs, LOL.
4. Suppose you’re developing general purpose software like language emulator for Win98, when you will try to use it in XP it will have problems, ok, in order to deploy the product for XP you need XP classes…so you can use that in your code. Oh! Pay the money to get the class from M$. Gee…no thanks.

[http://www.computerweekly.com/Article110131.htm]
_________________
...we too are stardust...

[quantum]

Whereas, I agree with most what DK says I do have some contrasting views.

.. expect programmers form third world country shouldn’t use M$ products...
1. I am heavily in favour of outsourcing. .net is backed by a very strong company. Whatever our feelings may be towards it. Micro$oft's overwhelming spread and influence is undeniable. If developed countries embrace .net, regardless of the cost, we who see outsourcing as wonderful opportunity to drag bangladesh out of the darkness should get adept in the system.

Suppose you got the money from management to develop the system, later management asked to deploy it in another department who use Apple, what you’re going to do?
2. Cross platform applications, is an issue. True. But how big? Most IT depts of any company with any forethoughts, usually buy and use similar hardwares and os.

portability. .NET doesn’t have those. C#...they steal the idea from Java, is there anything which is their own, oh sorry, yes there is…bugs,
3. So c# is an improvement on Java. So what? Java took and improved most ideas from c/c++. We stand on the shoulders of the giants. lol

Why we give our money to Americans?

4. If needed and america developed something useful why not give money to them just because they are american? That is just sentimental. What are the statistics on indian developers. Are you just saying or you have true facts?

Pay the money to get the class from M$. Gee…no thanks.
5. As for any property, intellectual properties should be paid for too. Open source is an wonderful culture. But its viability in the very long run is doubtful. Society stands on exchanging one's property with another's. As good as altruism may be, it is hard to live on it. That is why it does not last. This is just an intellectual view. I am all for open source but I prefer not to abandon everything else in favor of one.
_________________

Dust fills my eyes / Clouds roll by / and I roll with them / Centuries cry / Orders fly / and I fall again
Afford best design, implement best solution. Outsource your web design.

[dinangkur]

Quote:

So c# is an improvement on Java. So what? Java took and improved most ideas from c/c++. We stand on the shoulders of the giants. lol

How you say that! Java developed it and it became a cross-platform products. We can use it in different OS, thought it's slow :(

Does C# sharp work like that? If not how it becomes an improvement of JAVA?
You need to put some thinking in it!!! Hehehe.

Happy Hacking.

-DK :)
_________________
...we too are stardust...

[quantum]

Without doing any real research and knowing much about c# I can argue your question. This is a common fallacy of slipery slope so to speak.

Does C# sharp work like that? If not how it becomes an improvement of JAVA?

You are devaluing an entire process just for one fault. This is not a reuirement for c# to be platform independent for it to be better on most everything else.

Supoose open gl is open source. Does that take everything good away from Maya or Lightwave? Though proprietory, they have their own advantages and you can do things in Lightwave that is simply impossible or too hard to bother with open gl. For all that matters, there can be specialized softwares for specialized jobs. And it does not mean that it is inferior. It can be an improvement on the others in specialized issues.

You need to put some thinking in it!!! Hehehe.

I usually do my thinking before saying anything. Later if I find some time, I really intend to research and discuss this issue.
_________________

Dust fills my eyes / Clouds roll by / and I roll with them / Centuries cry / Orders fly / and I fall again
Afford best design, implement best solution. Outsource your web design.

[dinangkur]

Quote:

You are devaluing an entire process just for one fault. This is not a reuirement for c# to be platform independent for it to be better on most everything else.

It seems to me that you need a list of faults. That I can arrange for you, if you like that. To me it's wasting of time.

Java has some technical advantages over C#, and vice versa, but it's probably safe to assume that a debate over the technical merits of Java vs. C# will be unproductive and neverending.

One virtue of Java is that it's at least somewhat an open standard; the Java Community Process isn't ideal, but it does cover all the important APIs. The barest core of .NET is an ECMA standard, but the class libraries of note are Microsoft-specific. It's unclear that anyone but Microsoft could have significant influence over the ECMA spec in any case.


By the way, we need C# for any specialize works, yes for windows platform. My point is not with C# or .NET, there is a bigger fish to fry.
The idea of a monopoly corporation extending their hold to yet another segment of the software industry does not sit well with me. There is no other industry as psychotically monopolized as the computer industry. There is no need for the situation to go a step further. Microsoft is a rich, powerful company. There is nothing inherently wrong with being rich and powerful. There are plenty of rich, powerful corporations out there: Sony, GM, and IBM are all larger than Microsoft. Unlike Microsoft, they play by the rules. IBM broke the rules once, and it was punished for it. AT&T broke the rules, and it too was punished. If you take a look at their respective markets today, there is a healthy competition in all of them. In due time, Microsoft too, will be punished. It is economically unfeasible for the DOJ to do so now, but they've already been found guilty, and they are doing nothing to change their behavior. But in a proper capitalistic society, it is the consumer's that are supposed to act. But I'm afraid that these consumers have been so lulled by "ease of use" and "complete solutions" that they no longer have the strength to do so. Programming world can survive without that.

Most of the applications (excepting Maya, which was bought by SGI recently) are made by third parties. Same thing with Sun, and (mostly, excepting the iApps) Apple. These closed platform vendors supply management utilities and development tools, and (in the case of Apple) some small scale convenience software, but they don't go into wholesale competition with companies making products for their platform. Microsoft makes everything from the OS, to the browser, to the mail client, to the office suite, to the IDE, the utilities, you name it. That's just unhealthy.

Next, the traditional "closed-platform" vendors are moving towards more open platforms. An Apple computer is mostly composed of standard parts, SGI uses NVIDIA graphics cards in some machines, Sun uses x86 in some servers, and may use opteron, IBM and SGI are both moving to Itanium. With Palladium, Microsoft is moving towards a move closed platform. And thery are evening offering more close platform to work with which I find technological blow to the future.

I also do little bit research before saying anything. After all, I'm not that much freek to start a old religious war (flame feast) with Win lover.

-DK.
_________________
...we too are stardust...

[Guest]

It seems to me that you need a list of faults. That I can arrange for you, if you like that.

Please do. An expert opinion may diminish my interest in learning c# and thus save me from wasting time in mastering inefficient skills

Java has some technical advantages over C#, and vice versa, but it's probably safe to assume that a debate over the technical merits of Java vs. C# will be unproductive and neverending.

This statement implies, you admit that c# has enough ground to stand on a long term debate.

One virtue of Java is that it's at least somewhat an open standard;

Somewhat is the keyword. Can you make a java exe file that is self sufficient to run on all platform by itself?

By the way, we need C# for any specialize works, yes for windows platform. My point is not with C# or .NET, there is a bigger fish to fry.

The bigger fish had not come out until this message. Now it seems, for you it has always been to uphold a philosophy that you believe in. Open source versus proprietory. Until now we were mainly talking about relative advantages of two programming laguages involved. You by passed all my points from the first post and grabbed how c# is not better than java. Now you take another turn and say it is not about java or c# either. That is fine with me though.

Microsoft is a rich, powerful company. There is nothing inherently wrong with being rich and powerful. There are plenty of rich, powerful corporations out there: Sony, ....Microsoft too, will be punished

Perhaps when it is not economically unfeasible. Do you believe that the time is now? DOJ may not think so.

Put these two comments by yourself side by side and tell me do they counter each other or not?

1. in a proper capitalistic society, it is the consumer's that are supposed to act.

2. these consumers have been so lulled by "ease of use" and "complete solutions" that they no longer have the strength to do so.

So the consumers have chosen to act on comfortability. Who are the programmers to force something on the consumers? Make them eat something that they are unable to? Tell me DK. Do the programmers write programs to make their own lives easier, or they write programs to provide an useful service to the mass and make their lives easier?
For all your comments you are simply emphasizing how microsoft is more user friendly and provider of great complete solutions. In fact, so great that more than half the consumers are lulled by them. So what do we do as a business? Simply throw away half of the consumer market?

Microsoft makes everything from the OS, to the browser, to the mail client, to the office suite, to the IDE, the utilities, you name it. That's just unhealthy.

So why not provide a complete suite that matches microsoft in the ease of use and comfortability for the greater consumer market, instead of complainng why microsoft is better than everyone else in understanding people's psychology and their needs?

Next, the traditional "closed-platform" vendors are moving towards more open platforms. An Apple computer is mostly composed of standard parts, SGI uses NVIDIA graphics cards in some machines, Sun uses x86 in some servers, and may use opteron, IBM and SGI are both moving to Itanium.

Good for us.

And thery are evening offering more close platform to work with which I find technological blow to the future.

It may very well give the other people the initiative to do something really productive.

I also do little bit research before saying anything.

I NEVER claimed that you do not do your research. It was you who made the unprovoked statement towards me. Turning an intellectual debate into personal level.

After all, I'm not that much freek to start a old religious war (flame feast) with Win lover.

Another unprovoked personal attack that does less than nothing to prove your own statement. Did I try to label you as *nix lover, or freak? Tell me brother, when did I call you any of those?

quantum

[Guest]

LOL, it seems like we've started to fight. I think that's not good. Did I take it to personal level, no, sorry if you think like that? Nop I don't do that. And I didn't label you either, "Winlover": that word was not meant for you. I'm talking about people with PC and very much devoted to M$ without try other OS. As far as I know you're not in that level. by the way, it's not healthy to fight over an old issue.
I think you haven't seen Linus and Andrew S. Tannenbum flame feast on usenet.

Now you asked me is it possible to create JAVA exe...ok...how you're going to deploy C# to other platform,The C# compiler does not produce Windows .EXE files, it produces Microsoft Intermediate Language (MSIL).

You're taking the argument to business field. I thought that was about pure programming. Not about making money. My simple point is that we don't need one more language while computer world trying to create a standard computer lang, so everybody can use it and see inside of it, what's wrong with that?
And I simply don't like how M$ making a mess except reaching to a common ground. They could make C++/C more friendly by following C/C++ standard, no they had to add a lot of their own standard. Is it good for future you think?

Don't fotget that people who works for open-source, don't work for money. They work becasue they love to and they think knowledge is for everybody not someones own money to put in a volt. If that the case, we wouldn't have e=mc2
How many people donate for open-source to make a single platform like .NET? People who are doing those are very generous and think about future. And I like to fight for that. So, we can get back to C# and Java.

-DK.

[dinangkur]

Hi,

[http://mattschwartz.net:9000/msversus/node/view/113]

This is a link from the people who use .NET. I'm not a professional .NET user, so I think I shouldn't make any more comment regarding to that product anymore. After all, I can live without another product from M$.

What you think philosopher? Mail me when you get time.

Happy hacking.

-DK.
_________________
...we too are stardust...

[quantum]

LOL, it seems like we've started to fight. I think that's not good. Did I take it to personal level, no, sorry if you think like that?

Okay, you great *nix lover, I will take the proposal of cease-fire. :)

I think you haven't seen Linus and Andrew S. Tannenbum flame feast on usenet.

No. Is it archived somewhere? I get the feeling that it will be a very interesting read.

Now you asked me is it possible to create JAVA exe...
You can make .exe with java, i was just annoyed once when I tried to do that and I was supposed to make a seperate one for each os.

Your point about c# is accepted. No, it may not be possible. I am not sure. But that is just the thing. As I whole heartedly agree with you.."My simple point is that we don't need one more language while computer world trying to create a standard computer lang, so everybody can use it and see inside of it". You took a long round way to get to this good point. It will be perhaps good to fix on a common standard. I have some musings though. Now don't just jump all over my musings. This is not to defeat your point. But to discuss. Programming languages are much like the multitudes of human vernaculars. So how would it be, if there was just one language, english, instead of many? Many would fight to save his/her native language. There is emotional attachment and sentiments, not to mention economical stresses. But hey, I would'nt mind english as one language speaking everyone. I do like the idea of common grounds.

Don't fotget that people who works for open-source, don't work for money. They work becasue they love to and they think knowledge is for everybody not someones own money to put in a volt. If that the case, we wouldn't have e=mc2

DK, I have the greatest respect for those people. But there is the other part of the reality. You mentioned the famous e=mc2 by einstein. But why do you even know about this particular equation? Einstein, the 1921 Nobel Laureate in Physics, was awarded "for his services to Theoretical Physics, and especially for his discovery of the law of the photoelectric effect." Photoelectric effects. For haven's sake. Not for the conservation of energy. But we all know him by e=mc2. Why? because it produced the most spectacular result, economically influential services by atom bomb and nuclear power plants. Did you know, he spent the last 25 years of his life seeking after the theory of everything? Merging gravity with the three other fundemental forces of nature? Most of us don't. Because it did not produce such a visible result. So, it also matters that what you are, what you do, is visibly effective. This nature of reality does NOT make those people sacrificing for open source any lesser great. This is just a part of the reality that must be accounted for. That is all my point.


And I like to fight for that.

Yes DK. I would like to do that very much too. But I say, not by avoiding and abandonig the enemy. Closing our eyes and hope that they go away. Because they are the greatest teachers. They are the one watching your every move and punishing you for not correcting them. They can teach you things to effectively fight against them. And they can teach you things that your friends never can.

Quantum
_________________

Dust fills my eyes / Clouds roll by / and I roll with them / Centuries cry / Orders fly / and I fall again
Afford best design, implement best solution. Outsource your web design.


Last edited by quantum on Mon Apr 12, 04 9:19 am; edited 2 times in total

[quantum]

http://mattschwartz.net:9000/msversus/node/view/113

This is a link from the people who use .NET. I'm not a professional .NET user, so I think I shouldn't make any more comment regarding to that product anymore.

That is a horror story. I have'nt the opportunity to try and find out the difficulties of .net myself yet. I may, very soon though. That guy seems to really had a bad time. As veteran of the IT field you know that such experiences do happen. Why, if I told one of my flash students to install linux in a computer, I am sure he would have an even worse story to tell you. But did you scroll below to read the other comments too? I specially liked this one.

Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone...
and
they can't ALL be "perfect" like Sun's One.
:D
_________________

Dust fills my eyes / Clouds roll by / and I roll with them / Centuries cry / Orders fly / and I fall again
Afford best design, implement best solution. Outsource your web design.